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ITP Types and Treatments by HAL

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7 years 7 months ago #60872 by jayinchicago
Replied by jayinchicago on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
Both my IVIGs I had were 4 hour treatments for 2 days. Plus my response was only for 1-2 weeks.

Still I think I could between Type 2 and Type 3.

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  • Sandi
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  • Sandi Forum Moderator Diagnosed in 1998, currently in remission. Diagnosed with Lupus in 2006. Last Count - 344k - 6-9-18
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7 years 7 months ago #60877 by Sandi
Replied by Sandi on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
Jay - I think it's great that you are looking at the big picture here in making decisions. To some extent, I agree with your father in law about long-term bone marrow stimulation. No one truly knows the long-term risks associated with that, although the data from the past 10 to 15 years has shown that any fibrosis will reverse upon stopping the drug and it is generally caught early. The fact that you are able to sustain counts for three weeks between injections lowers your risk since you are not getting the drug every week, and you haven't really been using it all that long.

When my doctor suggested spleen removal (several times), I also looked at the big picture when making that decision. It would have been easy to just get it done and hope that it resolved my ITP, but I kept holding off. My intuition kicked in. At that time, Rituxan had just started to be used for ITP and I didn't have the options of N-Plate or Promacta. Basically I had steroids, Win-Rho, Danazol, and Rituxan. Steroids worked but since they did, I used them over and over until I couldn't do it any more. The side effects were horrible. I didn't respond to Win-Rho and Rituxan worked but I had a bad reaction. Anyway, the splenectomy decision just didn't seem to be the right solution because of long-term risks.

My point is that since you are looking at the future and not necessarily a quick fix for now, I wanted to be sure that you knew the long term risks of splenectomy before making that decision. This is all about benefit vs risk.

1. Splenectomy does not always work and relapses occur over time even if it works initially. If that happens, you're right back to the same treatment choices and they then become riskier. Studies show that splenectomy has a greater success rate in those under 40.

2. Life long risk of sepsis. If the splenectomy fails and you use immunosuppressants for ITP, that risk goes up.
"The major long-term risk of splenectomy is overwhelming post-splenectomy infection (OPSI). Post trauma, the life-time risk of OPSI is 0.1–0.5% and has a mortality of up to 50%.12 The risk of infection is life long as cases of fulminant infection have been reported more than 20 years post splenectomy and is greater with encapsulated organisms -streptococcus pneumonia, nessieria meningitides, and H influenza.29,55 Pneumococcal infection is most common and carries a mortality rate of up to 60%. Infection with H influenza type B, whilst much less common is nonetheless significant, particularly in children. The risk of OPSI is greatest during the first 3- years post splenectomy; greater in children especially under 5 years and who have had splenectomy for trauma (>10% excess risk) than adults (<1%).2,29,56 The risk of infection with encapsulated organisms is increased in immunosuppressed or immunodeficient individuals (e.g. HIV, myeloma, leukaemia)."
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1743919113011175

3. Risk of thrombosis. People with ITP are at an increased risk for thrombosis for various reasons. Splenectomy increases that risk. Using a TPO on top of that raises the risk even more.
"Within the ITP population, potential mechanisms by which splenectomy could increase the risk of VTE were recently reviewed and include loss of the spleen’s filtering activity, allowing for increased circulation and exposure of damaged red cells, cholesterol, and C-reactive protein. Animal models have suggested that splenic macrophages regulate inflammation and mobilization of splenic macrophages could promote thrombosis. Candidates for splenectomy are likely to be patients with relapsed or refractory ITP, a cohort also likely to be receiving aggressive medical therapy in the form of higher levels of immunosuppressive drugs and repeated hospitalization. It is possible that these risk factors increased the incidence of thromboembolism.
"In a prospective analysis of 205 patients with ITP, Aledort et al reported the cumulative incidence of VTE to be 5% in the adult patients. Fifty percent of the VTE cases were in patients who had undergone splenectomy. Bennett et al, using an insurance claims dataset, reported an overall rate of thromboembolism of 6.9% in a cohort of 2783 patients with a median follow-up of 15 months. However, the events included stroke and myocardial infarction, there was no increased risk ratio for VTE, and there was no information on splenectomy. Another prospective analysis of 114 patients with ITP refractory to splenectomy reported an increased rate of VTE compared with the expected rate of VTE in the general population; however, this increase was not significant when patients with other VTE risk factors were removed from the analysis. In contrast, a more recent retrospective analysis of 233 patients with ITP who underwent splenectomy revealed an 8% incidence of VTE in the 10-year period of follow-up, a higher incidence than previously reported and herein.

In a study to evaluate the safety of romiplostim in patients with ITP, 4.9% of treated patients had a thrombotic event. Most patients who had thrombotic events had preexisting risk factors for thrombosis before initiation of therapy. The same group reported a cumulative incidence of 2.4% for the entire study cohort but did not specifically analyze the relationship of VTE to splenectomy."
www.bloodjournal.org/content/121/23/4782?sso-checked=true

I thought about the possibility of acquiring another autoimmune disorder in the future or possibly even cancer and wondered how the splenectomy might have an impact on the ability to handle immunosuppressants or chemo. As it turned out, I did become diagnosed with another autoimmune disorder and have been on very strong immunosuppressants for that over the years. It took me 8 years to acquire a lasting ITP remission, but as the events unfolded, I was very glad that I hung on to my spleen. I don't know the long-term risk percentage for a person using N-Plate, but that should be weighed against the long-term risks of splenectomy.

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  • Hal9000
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  • Give me all your platelets and nobody gets hurt
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7 years 7 months ago #60879 by Hal9000
Replied by Hal9000 on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
Oh, a full IVIG treatment would be different. When I've seen that sort of response, strong TPO agonists with weaker IVIG response, I've listed it as a type 1 & 3 combination. Just a guess. You could be right with the 2 & 3 combo. Combinations are hard to interpret. This is where knowing which antibodies are in play would help a lot. Whatever the combo, 3 seems to be dominate.

Here is a bit of a coincidence. I've got 'Kelirae24' down in my notes as type 1 & 3. She too did not respond to Promacta! She is the person I found, besides you, who has a good Nplate response (a 2 dose) and didn't respond to Promacta. It appears she was just type 1 many years ago. Got a 3 year remission with IVIG and steroid treatment then. Eventually lost response to steroids and I think has variable IVIG response now.

On a related note, I have the daughter of 'xray001' as the only type 3 with a successful splenectomy in my notes.

Nothing simple or clear cut about ITP...

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  • Hal9000
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  • Give me all your platelets and nobody gets hurt
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7 years 6 months ago - 7 years 6 months ago #61434 by Hal9000
Replied by Hal9000 on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
Stumbled upon this information about treating those with no steroid or IVIG response ( row 2a ) with 'Tamiflu'.
"
Recent findings show that certain anti-GPIbα-antibodies trigger platelet desialylation, a process that deviates platelet clearance from splenic macrophage Fc-receptors to the liver, likely via the AMR, showing that FcγR-independent mechanisms of ITP exist. In this regard,
an adult chronic ITP patient with an anti-GPIb-IX autoantibody, who was resistant to corticosteroids, IVIG, recombinant human TPO, rituximab, danazol and vindesine (Eldisine®), has been successfully treated with oseltamivir phosphate, a sialidase inhibitor used to treat influenza
"
Reference: Novel mechanisms of platelet clearance and thrombopoietin regulation

Note that 'GPIb-IX' antibodies are specified and that Oseltamivir Phosphate is the generic name of Tamiflu . Also note the long list of failed drugs treatments.

My guess would be that Promacta/Nplate would have succeeded if given a prolonged treatment period. Further, that the time to response and even time to a eventual remission can be reduced with concomitant steroids.

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7 years 6 months ago #61437 by Margaret k
Replied by Margaret k on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
Thanks Hal you have largely described me. I had a good initial response to 50 mg Promacta,,gradually lost it and then after a prolonged time on 75 mg I have regained it. I will ask my haema what he knows about Tamiflu on my next app't. Interestingly I started ITP shortly after a flu jab.

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  • D.Mann
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  • Diagnosed October 2016 Steroids, IVIG, Rituxin, Promacta, Spleen removed, Rituxin again. Currently weaning off Promacta and Prednisone.
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7 years 6 months ago #61440 by D.Mann
Replied by D.Mann on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
When I was in the hospital with the flu in January I was given IVIG and Tamaflu. My count spike was much higher that time than any other IVIG treatment. If I remember correctly it lasted longer also. I had read something like this before and asked my Hemo about it. He had not heard of Tamaflu helping but said that if I wanted he would give me a prescription for some to try. I never did follow through due to other issues that came up.

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  • EmilyK
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  • Diagnosed jan 2015 at age 50 with 13,000 platelets.
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7 years 6 months ago #61455 by EmilyK
Replied by EmilyK on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
I applaud you for your effort. It looks like I am a 2b, but i had the scan in England and it was definately my spleen at work on the destruction. I had no response from Rituxan, great steroid response and thankfully Promacta. I alos responded to Nplate but my doctor had no idea how to manage the wide swings in counts.
Stay well.

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  • Hal9000
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7 years 6 months ago - 7 years 6 months ago #61476 by Hal9000
Replied by Hal9000 on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
Margaret, I can hear your doctors comments already, LOL. Something like:
'Don't believe everything you read on the Internet'
And then shortly after that:
'Especially don't believe someone with the name of: Hal9000'
I'd be interested to hear if your doc has heard about Tamiflu and ITP. I've got a hema appointment myself on Friday but I expect to be having a long, long discussion with her about Danazol.

Wow D.Mann. That is interesting to hear. With the flu season now arriving, maybe some others can report back on Tamiflu too. Cheers to less and less Promacta.

Emily, yes 2b.
When you reported to me your essentially flat line IVIG response months ago, that is when things really started to gel - that a poor IVIG response links to the Promacta remission response and those link rows 2a and 2b together. Hence the '2' prefix.
About the Indium scan result. Keep in mind that your Promacta remission is actually a partial remission, right? That is, your counts haven't gone up to the normal range. I wonder that the partial remission is because of the presence of two antibodies that are causing ITP. That is, two rows of the table are at work. Since you have a nice steroid response, it would make sense that rows 1 and 2b are at work. So perhaps the Indium scan was picking up the row 1 part of the response. It's unfortunate that you didn't get a partial remission from Rituxan. Not every row 1 does, but a lot do. I wish I had more data to figure out when it doesn't. The widely varying counts could be it - as you've sort of hinted at.
Your situation is one of the things that bothers me about current ITP treatment methodologies. The current standard is that, gee, Rituxan didn't work last time so there is no point in trying it EVER again. Once failed, always failed attitude. But with the realization that more than one ITP antibody can be at work, does that really make sense? You've had a big change in your ITP condition with the Promacta remission. Another Rituxan treatment could prove fruitless, but it's not so obvious now. It could work now to give you a full remission. Worse yet, the insurance company may hold this older thinking and could refuse to pay for another treatment. Blah.

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  • D.Mann
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  • Diagnosed October 2016 Steroids, IVIG, Rituxin, Promacta, Spleen removed, Rituxin again. Currently weaning off Promacta and Prednisone.
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7 years 6 months ago #61527 by D.Mann
Replied by D.Mann on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
Hal, I sent you a PM.

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  • Hal9000
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  • Give me all your platelets and nobody gets hurt
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7 years 6 months ago #61673 by Hal9000
Replied by Hal9000 on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL

jayinchicago wrote: ...
Sept 13\14 <IVIG Given + Transfusion+Steroid>
September 21, Count 70 (80mg prednisone)
September 26, Count 45 (80mg prednisone)
Oct 7, = 31 (80mg prednisone)]

Nov 15\16 <IVIG Given + Transfusion+Steroid>
Nov 22, Count 113 (80mg prednisone)
Nov 29, Count 15 (80mg prednisone)
NPLATE STARTED


Jay, is there any chance you were given Methylprednisone along with these IVIG treatments? Part of the IV in a hospital maybe?

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7 years 4 months ago #62111 by Rob16
Replied by Rob16 on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
Hal,
Does this new article relate to your ITP types? Thought you would be interested:
www.bloodjournal.org/content/130/Suppl_1/3641
Anti-Platelet Antibodies Are Predominantly IgM in Childhood Immune Thrombocytopenia
David Schmidt, Katja M.J. Heitink-Pollé, Leendert Porcelijn, C. Ellen Van der Schoot, Gestur Vidarsson, Marrie Bruin and Masja De Haas
Blood 2017 130:3641;
Abstract
Introduction

Platelet clearance in childhood immune thrombocytopenia (ITP) is thought to occur through antibodies binding to platelet glycoproteins such as GPIIb/IIIa, Ib/IX and V. Most children recover spontaneously, but ~10% remain thrombocytopenic beyond 12 months (chronic ITP).

Anti-platelet antibodies of IgG subclass have been shown in adult ITP patients. In children, limited data is available. Van Leeuwen et al. (Scand J Haematol 1981) suggested that children with chronic ITP might have class-switched platelet IgG antibodies, with superior effector functions, whereas anti-platelet IgM antibodies may be found in spontaneously recovering patients. 30% of children with ITP do not respond to intravenous immunoglobulin (IVIG) therapy, and a lower response rate to IVIG has been described in adult ITP patients with anti-platelet GPIb/IX antibodies. This association is yet unknown in children.

In the present work we investigated the prevalence of autoantibodies in childhood ITP and their effect on spontaneous recovery, development of chronic disease, and resistance to IVIG therapy.

Methods

We evaluated the presence and glycoprotein specificity of platelet autoantibodies in 200 children with newly diagnosed ITP who participated in a multicenter randomized controlled trial. In this study, children aged 3 months to 16 years were allocated in a 1:1 ratio to careful observation or a single dose of IVIG, and followed clinically for 1 year. Blood samples obtained at diagnosis were analyzed by indirect platelet monoclonal antibody-specific immobilization of platelet antigens (MAIPA, for IgG and IgM) at a central reference laboratory. To correlate autoantibody levels with clinical outcomes, we investigated the association between platelet antibody profiles and spontaneous resolution of thrombocytopenia (observation arm) and response to IVIG (treatment arm).

Results

Platelet antibodies were evaluated by incubation of patient serum with donor platelets, as the low sample volumes of children made it impossible to directly detect immunoglobulin binding to platelets of a thrombocytopenic child. At diagnosis, platelet autoantibodies of IgM subclass were found in 52% (95% confidence interval [CI], 44-60%) of patients. Glycoprotein-specific IgM antibodies to GPIIb/IIIa were most frequent (47%; 95% CI, 40-55%), followed by GPIb/IX (31%; 95% CI, 24-38%) and GPV (29%; 95% CI, 22-36%). In turn, glycoprotein-specific IgG antibodies were present in only 8% (95% CI, 4-12%) of children. Only 3 patients were positive for IgM and IgG autoantibodies at the same time. IgM anti-GPIIb/IIIa antibodies were more prevalent in young children, and correlated with lymphocytosis.

There was no association between the presence of platelet autoantibodies and resolution of thrombocytopenia 1 week after diagnosis, both for patients that were allocated to observation only (P=0.45 for IgM; P=1.0 for IgG) or treated with IVIG (P=0.94 for IgM; P=0.46 for IgG). The rate of no, partial and complete response were also similar amongst antibody-positive and -negative individuals. Buchanan bleeding scores were comparable amongst patients with and without antibodies.

Finally, we could not detect differences in autoantibody levels or isotype between patients who remained thrombocytopenic beyond 12 months (chronic ITP), and patients who recovered. During the 1-year follow-up period, we found no evidence of class switching from IgM to IgG, also not in children who developed chronic ITP.

Conclusions

Our data show that in contrast to adult ITP, platelet antibodies in newly diagnosed childhood ITP are predominantly of IgM subclass. The spontaneous recovery and response to IVIG was not different between children with or without antibodies.

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  • Hal9000
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7 years 4 months ago #62118 by Hal9000
Replied by Hal9000 on topic ITP Types and Treatments by HAL
Hey Rob. Thanks for the info on another brand spanking new article.
Not sure what to make of this one. Had to think about it for awhile. It's kind of like the authors threw a big monkey wrench into the works. For example:
- I've never heard of GPV (aka GP5 ) or that GPV antibodies are implicated to platelet destruction
- the title says IgM is implicated in childhood ITP but then at the end says no 'class switching' (IgM to IgG) was noted, even after 1 year follow up

I don't get what it is trying to say about IgM. As I understand, IgM is a precursor to IgG and IgM goes away after a few weeks . So why doesn't IgM disappear after a few weeks and cause ITP to vanish with no class switching to IgG? It's like the article is an abbreviated version of something much larger/longer. A longer version with clear explanations. How do they explain IgM against platelets not going away after 1 year?

I do like this sentence since it reinforces my thinking on row 2 and poor IVIG response because of liver destruction:
"30% of children with ITP do not respond to intravenous immunoglobulin (IVIG) therapy, and a lower response rate to IVIG has been described in adult ITP patients with anti-platelet GPIb/IX antibodies."

Trying to relate the study's IgM theme to what I've seen from user responses is problematic. At some point IgM must go away else such a condition of it existing in adults would have been discovered long ago. The study's implication is that IVIG doesn't contain IgM and thus a segment of children with ITP don't respond to IVIG. But the IgM must transfer to IgG at some point. Such an occurrence/transfer would mean that one would gain response to IVIG at that time.

I don't recall anyone claim to gain IVIG response when a response didn't exist before. It's always a loss of IVIG response, or, a fluctuating response where it is lost and gained at random. I take that back. Actually I think I have heard some claim that they gained IVIG response. I think some pregnant woman have claimed such a thing. I dunno. Perhaps Sandi has a better recollection on this subject.

Can someone help me to properly understand this study? IgM is very new to me. Also, when I google ITP and GP5 I don't seem to get anything.

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