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Spontaneous Brain Bleed...what are the chances?

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14 years 10 months ago #10150 by MDgal
So I met my Hem today, who has by the way been pushing for a splenectomy since I have tried the other things like IVIG, Rituxan and Winrho with temporary results (I have also been on prednisone all this while which is driving me crazy). Anyway, today I told him I want to get completely off the prednisone and give my body sometime to adjust a little before we pursue the splenectomy. I am now on 5 mg and my count today was 30. He got very upset that I didn't want to do the splenectomy immediately.

He said, what I am proposing is dangerous and I should know that as I taper the prednisone the counts will keep dropping and he said "boom that will be it for you, you will bleed spontaneously in your brain and die". I told him I am not a bleeder and my previous Hem didn't treat till I was under 10, infact I was diagnosed with a count of 2 and drove myself to the ER that day. He said well, "even with counts of 30 you can bleed in your brain and die". Ok, so I'm sitting there thinking wow, how can someone say this with such certainty? As a patient I know the risks of the disease but to say things like that wow. Then he proceeds to say, "you should know if you get in a car accident today, you will die because you will bleed to death". I'm sitting there thinking wow, all because I said I want to get off the prednisone and hold off on the splenectomy. I did tell him I would still get my counts done weekly and if they dropped below 10, we could do the IVIG but I wanted to be off steroids as I was having knee pain, acne, weight again and other things and think my body may respond better to things while I am off prednisone. He said, while prednisone is not good to take long term those effects are probably not related to steroids...huh? what? so I guess it must be a coincidence since that is the only medicine I am taking. his words "not all bad things are caused by steroids". I am at a loss for words right now but still carry my hope on.

Please can someone tell me the probability of having a spontaneous brain bleed and what would trigger it? I'm taking spontaneous to me, the brain starts to bleed on it's own.

"With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." - Matthew 19:26
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14 years 10 months ago #10151 by tigereyes
I cant believe the doctor would tell you that. Just so you know I have been in a car accident--not bad--when my counts were 12. I had a great deal of bruising but nothing really happened no interal bleeding or anything oddly enough i was on my way to the hemas office and was told to go to the er for observation and ultrasound.

Spotaneous means just that nothing to induce the bleeding it will just bleed. Im not sure how common it is but not so much that my hema has let me go on 6 hr car drives with a count of 30. Have you thought about possibly seeing another hema?? Ive seen doctors who work in the same office as my hema and one of them freaked out when I was at 10, I quitely asked for a rx of prednisone and opted to wait for my hema to return the next day. Dont get me wrong brain bleeds are bad but if you feel like youve got the worst headace of your life, blurred vision, memory loss, slurred speach then Id head to the local ER. If you know your not much of a bleeder--you know your body best. Im 22 weeks pregnant with a count of 30...yes 30 and both my hema and OB are ok with that. We have plans in place that if me or the baby become distressed we will start treatment ASAP. But for now there is no need. I would ask to see another doctor. If you cannot work with your doctor it makes it difficult. My doctor has always given me my options advised what he felt was best and let me make the decision. Bottom like is that it is your body and you ahve to live with the side effects.

Jennifer

Mother of 2 boys
Last Rituxan 12/09/09--3rd time around with not much sucess
Winrho-09/25/09 Didnt work.
IVIG--Countless times

Latest counts 8 4/2013-just started Promatca
Diag. 9/2006
14 years 10 months ago #10153 by
Dear MDgal,

I would run (well, maybe walk, very fast and carefully :) and find myself a new hemo! I would have the same reaction as you. He is either not well informed, or he is only trying to bully and intimidate you--actually both, it seems.

Here is a good article that I posted a couple of years ago, that I think has reassured many people. It is written by some hematologists that have seen a LOT of cases of ITP.

Especially given your age and otherwise good health, as well as the fact that you are not a bleeder, I would not think you would be at high risk for a brain bleed. From any cases I've read about that have had a spontaneous brain bleed, there were always other serious health issues, which also involved being on multiple medications and/or treatments, that were likely a contributing factor.

And, I know that since you are using homeopathy, we have a number of remedies that can stop a brain bleed if one should occur. You could have those on hand for the worst case scenario. When my daughter was diagnosed, she hit her head hard on a table at a friend's house the first weekend after she was diagnosed, and when I picked her up hours later, she had a HUGE hematoma covering nearly the whole top of her head (under her scalp).

I gave her homeopathic Arnica on the way to the ER, and right before we went in. We had to wait hours before being seen and getting a CT scan. It showed that she had had some bleeding, but now it was stopped. Her platelets had been at 5k the day before. They had no treatment to offer her anyway, but she was still having some pain. I gave her another dose of the Arnica, and within 5 minutes all pain was gone.

That was obviously from an injury, but there are other remedies that can be given for a spontaneous bleed, as well.

Here is the article:

Can I die from ITP?
By James. N George, M.D., Oklahoma City, George R. Buchanan, M.D., Dallas

www.itpsupport.org.uk/american/%209.%20Can%20I%20Die%20from%20ITP.pdf

The question is often asked, directly or implicitly, whether ITP can be, or is often, fatal? Such concerns are expressed, not only by ITP patients and/or their parents, but also by physicians who may or may not be familiar with the condition. The concerns are inevitable during the initial days after discovery of a very low platelet count, when dangerous diseases such as acute leukemia are also considered. So, in this brief essay, we will try to address what is obviously a very important question.

Yes, ITP can potentially be fatal. However, that could be said for virtually every disease, including many which are usually not very serious. Extremely rare, but fatal, complications can occur from strep throats, the common cold (which may lead to pneumonia), chickenpox, or what seems to be a mild case of indigestion. But, to put things in perspective, ITP, although troublesome, and occasionally, a truly serious problem, is rarely fatal. The fear of serious and even fatal hemorrhage, far exceeds its actual occurrence. This, of course, is due to the otherwise good health of most patients with ITP, and the fact that their platelets, though few in number, are younger and stickier than platelets of normal people. This is due to the rapid platelet destruction in ITP, and the increased production of new platelets, by the bone marrow. The younger platelets are more effective in protecting hemorrhage in the brain and elsewhere, even following minor injuries.

The most common cause of death in children with ITP is intercranial hemorrhage (bleeding in the brain). We lack accurate scientific information about how often that occurs and whether any specific treatment prevents it. The best study, performed in the United Kingdom, by Professor lilleyman and his colleagues, suggest that it happens in about 1 in 800 children with ITP. Since slightly more than half of children with intercranial hemorrhage due to ITP recover, the actual death rate is probably about 1 in 2,000. This would translate into approximately two deaths annually, due to childhood ITP in the United States, and 1 every other year in the U.K. So, fortunately, fatal bleeding in ITP is extremely rare. Since splenectomy is so infrequently performed in children with ITP, it’s most feared complication is fatal septecemia, or blood poisoning, and is also now very rare. One important job that we as physicians interested in ITP have, is to educate patients and parents, as well as our physician colleagues, about this reassuringly low incidence of death, due to ITP or it’s treatment.

The situation may be somewhat different in adults, who are more likely to have other conditions that contribute to fatal bleeding, whose disease is longstanding, or who suffer from fatal consequences of long-term treatment of ITP. Hence, some adults die ‘with’ ITP, rather than necessarily ‘from’ ITP. Good data are hard to come by, but it seems that death due to hemorrhage in adults with ITP is, like in children, extremely rare. Many hematologists have never experienced fatal ITP in their practice.

So, what does all of this mean? We can’t say, ‘don’t worry’ about ITP. Clearly, as the recent survey conducted in the UK showed, ITP causes a great deal of anxiety, and bleeding problems resulting from ITP, as well as the side effects of steroids and other treatments, can be difficult. However, most people with ITP fully recover or eventually improve with few or no bleeding problems. ITP rarely caused life-threatening or fatal bleeding complications. Therefore, the fear of hemorrhage in ITP should not influence patients and their physicians, to pursue toxic, arduous and costly forms of treatment. As we often tell our ITP patients and their families, “If you have to have a blood disease, ITP is a lot better than most of the alternatives!”


April
14 years 10 months ago #10154 by
Oops! Somehow double-posted, but I can't figure out how to get rid of this one, so I just edited it.

April
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14 years 10 months ago #10160 by MDgal
Thanks a lot April & Tigereyes. I don't know why Doctor's raise fear in patients for no reason. I will find another Hematologist if this Doctor still keeps up trying to instill "fear" as a tactic for his patients to pursue treatment

April -
Great news is that, after you and I spoke and I cleared the benadryl from my system my counts went up from 19 to 30. They were 19 on Monday and 30 today. Homeopathy is really wonderful. Will keep you posted. I haven't even started the other remedies and already seeing results.

"With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." - Matthew 19:26
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14 years 10 months ago #10161 by Sandi
Okay. First of all, 30k is considered to be a safe count. I would consider a second opinion after that little scenario. I was under 20 and stayed there for months just monitoring and watching. No one gave me scare tactics. My doctor suggested a splenectomy, I said no, and we moved on to other options. We worked together and were a team when it came to treatments and decisions. I believe that every patient has the right to that sort of relationship.

On to your question. Brain bleeds are always a possibility, however, are very rare with counts under 5 and are even more unlikely with counts of 30. It is my understanding though that they are instantaneous and you may not be able to stop them yourself with a medication because you either may not recognize the symptoms or may become too incapacitated too quickly to help yourself. A brain bleed is a stroke. I know of no one who has had a stroke who was able to function normally within seconds of the incident.

There are other treatment options to consider, and you may want to go for another opinion just for that purpose.
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14 years 10 months ago #10163 by MDgal
Thanks Sandi. I thought so too that 30 was pretty safe especially for my overall case. If I had to give myself a count number based on how I felt today, I would have said 80 or 90 because I had absolutely no bleeding symptoms and had lots of energy. Anyway, I may not be seeing this hematologist for much longer if he keeps up like this.

"With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." - Matthew 19:26
14 years 10 months ago #10166 by
Hi Lynn,

That's great! See how well your body works all on it's own, once you get rid of the effects of the drugs!

You also asked about what the symptoms of a brain bleed would be. Here is one article that describes it:

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/subarachnoid+hemorrhage

Wow! I reread your first post again, and really can't believe your doctor's bedside manner. Please know that there are many good hematologist's out there that would give you a completely different opinion. I could respect his opinion if it hadn't been given with such scare-mongering and arrogance. All credibility goes totally out the window for me, when I hear such statements.

April
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14 years 10 months ago #10168 by eklein
We've had two members here that I know of that had spontaneous brain bleeds and recovered (or are recovering), and one that I know of who passed away from a spontaneous brain bleed, so it isn't like there is zero risk. I don't think you can walk around worrying about it all the time but it sometimes happens and it's very scary.
Erica

And she was!
Diagnosed May 2005, lowest count 8K.
4/22/08: 43K (2nd Rituxan)
10/01/09: 246K, 1/8/10: 111K, 5/21/10: 233K
Latest count: 7/27/2015: 194K
14 years 10 months ago #10170 by
It would be good to hear from the two members who recovered from a brain bleed, and learn what their experiences were as far as symptoms go, and maybe mention any other risk factors that they might have ha. (That is, if they don't mind sharing; it may be too personal for them.)

As far as the one that recently passed away, sadly, he had multiple other medical problems that very likely contributed to it. MDgal is young, vital and healthy, not a bleeder, so seems to have a very small risk.


April
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14 years 10 months ago #10194 by lili
Hi MDGal,

I take a low dose of pred (5 mg every other day) for my ITP. My goal is to have my platelets over 30. I've been doing this for some time. My platelets actually fell to 37 in late September and then a few weeks later to 30. My hemotologist was OK with me just waiting. I would have argued with him if he were not. A few weeks later they were 58. I did stop bicycling to work when my platelets were 30, but otherwise I continued my normal activities.

Anyone can have a brain bleed at any age. Of course the risk increases when you have low platelets, but there is also risk associated with all of the treatments offered for ITP. I personally don't feel that treating ITP aggressively when your platelets are over 30K is not worth it.

I also try to remember that life is very uncertain, even if you don't have ITP. Any of us could be hit by a truck at any moment. So I just try to appreciate my friends and family and enjoy my life as much as I can today.

Lily
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14 years 10 months ago #10195 by server
I think your question of the chances of a brain bleed has been answered, very nicely in fact! But I just gotta say.....WOW! I would surely look for a different doctor! My husband said "Who does that doctor think he is giving a death sentance like that?!" I agree.

My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
Psalm 73:26
Blessings,
gretchen
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14 years 10 months ago #10204 by meredithjane
Replied by meredithjane on topic Re:Spontaneous Brain Bleed...what are the chances?
A few months ago when I had a major nose bleed I was told by Doctors that everyone has a blood vessel bleed occasionally, but with ITP it doesn't stop readily. Sure has made me wary of doing certain things like lifting heavy objects (the guys won't let me lift field bins any more!), having too hot shower/baths or blowing up party balloons.
Pity vacuuming is not a risk :P
mj
14 years 10 months ago #10267 by
Like has been said already, look for another hematologist.
Do not allow ANY physician to scare and bully you into any treatment that you do not want...if there are other viable options...and there are many options still for you to try, most do not include slicing out an organ.

The likelihood of being in a car accident and bleeding out is about as likely as crossing the street and getting hit by a bus: Yes, both scenarios CAN happen, but it's not something to live in constant fear of. I recall a year ago with a 4k count, I fell 5 feet onto my head and I didn't even have my foam-rubber helmet on. I'm not recommending that stupid trick to anyone, but I did survive the experience.

For most of the past few years I'd have loved to have a 30k count...a lot of folks live just fine on lower numbers. Find someone who will work with you on a course of treatment which you can both live with.
BTW: Eventually you will learn where your personal danger points are and how low of counts you can be comfy with. I used to freak at 4k, now it's just a number.

Jack
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14 years 10 months ago #10310 by jtx
Hi MDGal, This happened to me. I had a spontaneous brain bleed in June of this year. It was very scary, but I was extremely lucky, it was very small and did no permanent damage. I actually drove myself to the ER after a sudden onset of "the worst headache of my life" followed by vomiting. After all of my prior research, I knew it was bad. (btw, if this ever happens to anyone here, do not drive yourself to the ER, big mistake.) After a CAT scan at the hospital I was told I'd had a subarachnoid hemorrhage.

The weird thing was that my platelet count was 80K, a "safe" count (I was on a high dose of prednisone at the time, doing a slow taper). So the hemorrhage was ruled as idiopathic, no known cause. (sound familiar?) They could not officially point the cause at anything specific, but several Drs. felt that it was a combination of ITP and long-term, high dose steroids. My hemo did not feel like ITP had anything to do with it because the count was safe. But in my gut, I believe it was the combination of ITP, prednisone and long, stressful work hours for the previous few months.

So, I guess these things can happen to anyone at anytime, ITP or not, although it is extremely rare. Ironically a couple of months prior to this I also had had the talk with my hemo about stopping pred and not treating, and like your dr. he gave me a stern talking to of what can happen if you don't treat ITP. Well, I treated and it happened anyway.

I hesitated posting, because my situation may not have had anything to do with ITP and I didn't want to scare people, especially those with safe counts. But I did want to share my story.
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14 years 10 months ago #10312 by MDgal
Sorry to hear that jtx but glad you survived. Yes, I have heard from some in this forum that prednisone instead made them bleed more. I wonder if anyone has had remission from the use of steroids alone. I think they cause more harm than good for ITP patients.

"With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God." - Matthew 19:26
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14 years 9 months ago #10343 by Sandi
Some people with ITP also have platelet function problems that can contribute to bleeding.

Theoretically, Prednisone is known to aid blood vessel integrity (like Vitamin C) and should help bleeding. I said "theoretically".

JTX - thanks for sharing. I know you don't want to scare anyone, but inquiring minds want to know. It is a good idea to be aware of the possibilities.
14 years 9 months ago #10351 by
When Bubba started bleeding like a stuck pig and we started researching, everything we found said that prednisone BLOCKS vit. C and increases bleeding risk as a result. So I'm curious where the "theory" comes from that pred. is supposed to help cell integrity. What we found in our web searches was the exact opposite.

I agree, JTX. Although stories like yours are concerning, it is good to have the information and know what can happen from someone who's been there. Thanks for sharing. I am glad you are okay!

patti
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14 years 9 months ago #10354 by Gort
Even thought ITP-generated strokes are different from the strokes most people typically think of, the symptoms are pretty much the same:

Sudden numbness or weakness of the face, arm or leg, especially on one side of the body
Sudden confusion, trouble speaking or understanding
Sudden trouble seeing in one or both eyes
Sudden trouble walking, dizziness, loss of balance or coordination
Sudden, severe headache with no known cause

If you experience any of these symptoms, call 911. It's that simple. There are medications you can be given if you respond quickly enough that will limit, but not prevent all, damage. The notion that you can take something (homeopathic or not) that will stop the bleeding sort of misses the point, because the damage has already been caused, at least to some degree. Blood is toxic to brain cells -- when you bleed and the blood touches brain tissue, the brain tissue dies. No pill, remedy, vitamin, magic, hocus pocus or anything else will bring that tissue back to life. I sure wish that wasn't the case, but it is.

All three of my head bleeds were preceded by a so-called "thunderclap headache," which was far beyond any headache I have ever had, including migraines.

I think ITP-related head bleeds are extremely rare. My neuro rehab unit, which is at one of the best neuro shops in the world (Barrows Neurological Institute) has only seen two ITP-related patients over the years. And, the informal sample of those who post to this board supports the notion that bleeds are very rare. In my case, the first stroke happened when I was on no other medication and had no other health problems (other than ITP); the other two occurred when I was taking meds that pretty much undoubtedly complicated things. The first one, I wasn't sure what was happening and I just tried to deal with the headache, up to the point where my right arm stopped working and then I knew something was up.

I have been in single digits many times where my head did not bleed. I really think it is very rare. But, if you have the worst headache of your life or you lose movement on one side of your body, call 911. If it's a false alarm, they won't mind. I've had three, but honestly I don't sit around worrying about it. I have greater odds of being killed by an errant golf ball.

--Steve
Living with ITP since 1967.
"Abandon negative action; Create perfect virtue; Subdue your own mind. This is the teaching of the Buddha."
The following user(s) said Thank You: kym
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14 years 9 months ago #10364 by jtx
Thanks all, I'm glad this is helpful.

Gort, I am curious about your three head bleeds, wow. Sounds like they were all spontaneous. Did your drs. think they were connected? How far apart were they? I was very worried of course about this happening to me again, but two neurologists that I saw said I have no greater chance of it happening again than anyone else. But because there was no known cause I am not sure how they can be so sure. One neurologist that I saw in the hospital said that I am at greater risk. Don't get me wrong, I am not living in fear, it's just interesting to hear about other's experiences. Thanks.
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14 years 9 months ago #10367 by Sandi
Here's one. I'm too tired to find any more right now:

1) Prednisone: Prednisone is a cortisone or steroid-like medication which is usually given by mouth for 4 to 14 days (or occasionally in high doses by vein for three days). In some children the prednisone may result in a more rapid rise in the platelet count than if no treatment is given and may also reduce bleeding by “strengthening” the blood vessels. Prednisone often has temporary side effects such as moodiness, weight gain, insomnia, and stomach aches. Long-term use of this medication for ITP is not recommended because of these and other side effects (diabetes, reduced immunity, thin bones, etc).

www.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/cda/dept107927/files/499607.html
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14 years 9 months ago #10375 by eklein
Steve - PLEASE move away from the golf course!
Erica

And she was!
Diagnosed May 2005, lowest count 8K.
4/22/08: 43K (2nd Rituxan)
10/01/09: 246K, 1/8/10: 111K, 5/21/10: 233K
Latest count: 7/27/2015: 194K
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13 years 7 months ago #22336 by ccurley
JTX, I realize this is an older post but I just did my first post on this site regarding a brain bleed I had last week. Yours was the first post I have found after much searching for another ITP patent with a bleed. My platelets were 3, but mind you that could have been for months I wasn't being followed at the time by my Dr. A Neurologist did not even bother to visit me in the hospital which made me think ok i guess it isn't major. Another doctor said very very tiny dots. I have so many questions about the headache. It is not even close to what it was just an annoyance every now and then during the day and they did give me tramadol. How long before you felt "normal" again after the bleed? Just trying to get an idea. Late at night when I am tired by fingers on my left hand have gone numb it has been 7 days after i went to the hospital and I am a programmer so I type all day anyway. I have had this since 1960s and this my first incident. Thanks for any input. Take Care, Char