Discussion Moved

Sandi wrote:

Patti - just exactly what would you see a doctor for? I've been curious about that. Would you treat everything naturally or would you actually see an MD for something?

I go to the doctor when it's necessary. Necessary being the key word. In May I broke my leg and got a 3rd degree sprain in my ankle. I went to ER rather quickly and the orthopedist thereafter. And when the idiot orthopedist didn't do surgery and told me to start walking on my leg at 9 weeks and I couldn't, I got a second opinion from the best guy in the country. So, yes, when I need a doctor, I see a doctor. But I also choose my treatments carefully. I was literally off of my feet for 6 months (due to the idiocy of the first guy) and ended up with a blood clot. While the doctor wanted me to use blood thinners I opted to treat it naturally. And did so successfully. I had to have the clot gone before they could do surgery.

I have not always been a naturalist. Six years ago I could have never imagined sitting where I am today philisophically. After treating my MIL naturally for MDS/leukemia (her decision) I became very aware of just how bad medicine today is. I do see/talk to doctors. Just because the ones I use do not have MD ("God") after their names does not mean they have not had years of schooling and know what they're doing. The problem is, from every doctor (MD) I've been involved with this past 6yrs there is only one that has not had a "god" complex. And if you doubt that, look at some of the crap people on this forum get told by these doctors.

What I have found these past few years is that people want a quick fix to their health problems. They want to take a pill that dissolves that clot quickly. They don't want to take garlic and use blood thinning foods and take extra precautions because it's HARD work and takes longer. It's easier to pop a pill every day and go about your business. But what is that pill doing to your body and what diseases is it setting yourself up for in the future? Garlic? Worst case I get really garlicky breath for a week while I deal with that clot.

At one point after my first leg surgery this summer I got cellulitis (they thought)on my leg. I treated it naturally for a long time before I ever considered antibiotics. But it's hard work doing that and quite frankly, most people just don't want to do it. I did take abx this summer and then the doctor decided it wasn't cellulitis I was dealing with, it was scar tissue impeding healing. I went through 7yrs of doctors with my son trying to find out what was wrong with him starting when he was 14 months old. He was 9yrs old before it was a naturepath that not only knew exactly what was wrong with him, but how we could fix it. EVERY one of those doctors (there were 7 of them), told me to give him benadryl and let it go. Benadryl was definitely a factor in Bubba's ITP. You cannot treat symptoms and expect to get healing. If you treat the underlying weakness then the body will heal. If you don't, then you're right, Sandi - someone probably will have their ITP come back. But if you treat the underlying reason it exists in the first place, the body will HEAL.

Philisophically, I believe medical care is for trauma care - not healing the body. If we need medicine, we use it. But it's not the first thing we run to when someone gets sick. If it's an emergency (like Bubba was at 1000 platelets) then we deal with the emergency medically if needed and go from there. But even looking back, had we not been so scared out of our wits by the doctors, we would have brought him home. Because in the end, IVIG did nothing for him but make him sick and still left him with no platelets. You don't heal the body by making it sick or trying to kill it first. There is absolutely nothing logical about that. But there is something very logical about finding out causes and fixing those as the underlying issue. And that is what we did and that is how we treat everything in our home. As much as is reasonably possible and safe, we treat the cause and let the symptoms work themselves out.

So I guess there is really no cut and dry answer to your question. I do not believe there is NEVER a reason to see a doctor. I needed several to put my leg and ankle back together this summer. But we make our decisions based on what is wrong and the underlying causes present at that time. And we don't just do everything a doctor tells us. If we can use something natural to fix an issue in the process of working with the doctor, then that's what we do (like my blood clot).


patti

Patti - the only flaw in that is time. Some people do not have the luxury of allowing a clot to dissolve naturally. Some people do not have the luxury of getting counts up naturally. Treating cancer naturally, again, time can be an issue. Some people don't have 4 to 6 months to see if a natural treatment will work.

I've met many doctors that I didn't like over the years. I either did not like their personality or I did not agree with their methods of treatment. When that happens, I move on and find one that I do like. I have been successful and therefore, wouldn't presume to say that all or even most doctors are bad. There are some who are compassionate and caring and know their stuff. I have a hemo who has been the first to admit that ITP is not his specialty; he treats over 100 illnesses and said he cannot know everything about all of them. I respect that. I became proactive and did my own research and we work together. I have seen an actual ITP specialist and did not get any better answers there, so I do not believe I lost anything with my current hemo of 13 years.

I agree with Erica about digestive issues....I do believe that some disorders can be controlled by diet. I used the word controlled, not cured because chances are, if you stop the diet, the disorder will come back. However, I also believe that there are many people for whom this will not work.

You keep saying that there are many people on these boards who have been cured by homeopathy. Where are they? I'd love to hear from them so please round them up. I'm sure everyone struggling with ITP right now would love to hear their stories.

Sandi wrote:

Patti - the only flaw in that is time. Some people do not have the luxury of allowing a clot to dissolve naturally. Some people do not have the luxury of getting counts up naturally. Treating cancer naturally, again, time can be an issue. Some people don't have 4 to 6 months to see if a natural treatment will work.

I've met many doctors that I didn't like over the years. I either did not like their personality or I did not agree with their methods of treatment. When that happens, I move on and find one that I do like. I have been successful and therefore, wouldn't presume to say that all or even most doctors are bad. There are some who are compassionate and caring and know their stuff. I have a hemo who has been the first to admit that ITP is not his specialty; he treats over 100 illnesses and said he cannot know everything about all of them. I respect that. I became proactive and did my own research and we work together. I have seen an actual ITP specialist and did not get any better answers there, so I do not believe I lost anything with my current hemo of 13 years.

I agree with Erica about digestive issues....I do believe that some disorders can be controlled by diet. I used the word controlled, not cured because chances are, if you stop the diet, the disorder will come back. However, I also believe that there are many people for whom this will not work.

You keep saying that there are many people on these boards who have been cured by homeopathy. Where are they? I'd love to hear from them so please round them up. I'm sure everyone struggling with ITP right now would love to hear their stories.

Sandi,

You seem to have missed the entire point of my post. You asked if I would ever see a doctor. I gave you my answer. Apparently in that you somehow think that I have/had the luxury of time and that's the only reason I chose the route I did. At least that's how you come across. I think I was pretty clear that trauma/emergencies, are just that. I pulled out the blood clot example because I was trying to make a point and you completely missed that point as well. If you look at the diseases of today that people pop up with, very few of them are an "emergency." My BIL gets patients in his office daily with heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes (type 2), etc. He tells every single one of them to fix their diet by eating nothing processed (not from a box or can) and what's wrong with them will get better within 6 months and probably sooner. In 20% of the cases he said patients will do it. The other 80% tell him they want medicine to fix it. THAT'S the point I was trying to make. Some people have choices to fix things simply by being healthier and they don't want to because it's too hard and takes too long. I won't quibble about emergencies. They exist, they happen. But once the emergency is over, time is generally on people's side. I said, generally. That means "not always." No need to argue semantics here.

You imply we made our decision for natural medicine based on just a couple of doctors. Well, we partially did. Because after 7 not having a clue we figured what harm could one naturepath do? I mean really? How surprised we were. It's not like we didn't switch and switch and switch. So it's not like we gave up after one doc. I'm not the only one on planet earth that has had this issue. Sometimes I think that's how a lot of us got started with natural medicine. We refuse to believe someone with a god complex when they say, "it can't be fixed." But the second part of that is realizing I'm responsible for my own health. That means doing only those things which actually promote health. As I said earlier, you don't heal the body by making it sick or trying to kill it first. There is absolutely nothing logical about that. So the second part of our decision was simply logical.

With ITP, the only ones who wouldn't have the luxury of time would be a bleeder with low counts, IMO. What made my kid any different at zero then the next guy except he wasn't a bleeder? Did he have the time for that? Did I? No one does. I have a friend whose husband quit his job and took care of her full time and their 3 little boys so they could treat her aplastic anemia naturally. The doctors said she'd die within months if they didn't do something *now.* It took two years. It was the *hard* thing to do. They could have done all of the drugs they wanted to throw at her. All I'm saying is, there is a way to heal the body and if a load of people here want to do drugs, then go for it. But whenever someone mentions anything natural the wolves come out. And you know they do! I also think doctors tend to be alarmists. I've seen this over and over the last 15yrs. They use fear to scare you into doing what THEY think you should do. And that is exactly what they did with Bubba when we took him in. Which is the only reason we did IVIG in the first place. They convinced us he would die if we didn't do something. When I see people with counts at 5K that aren't bleeders, it doesn't phase me a bit now. If my boy can sit at zero for months (again, he's not a bleeder), then so can others. But my boy would still be at zero today had we not gone homeopathic. Three hematologists pretty much gave up on doing anything but chemo with him. And they don't even know that that would have worked. Again, you don't heal the body by making it sick first. That's just crazy.

I do not think ITP is a disease of diet. I don't think that just changing one's diet will fix it (if that were the case Bubba wouldn't have gotten it in the first place because that kid has a very pure diet - mostly out of necessity). I would venture that there might be one or two other people on this board who eat as clean as my family does (we do not eat processed food at all). We eat all organic, from farms, etc. Do I think diet helped Bubba as his body healed? Yes. Do I think we would have seen the homeopathy work as fast if we ate the standard american diet? No way. But diet did not fix him. Homeopathy did. Somehow I think you equate homeopathy and naturepathy as one in the same. And they are two very different creatures. I use both depending on the situation I'm dealing with.

I can think of at least 3 people off the top of my head that don't post here anymore after using homeopathy. And I haven't been on this board long. They don't post because the nastiness that several of you put out is so very bad that who wants it? It would be nice if they would come back and tell you all, but it's guaranteed that either someone will get nasty with them or they will get blown off as not having been as bad off or something. And be honest with yourself - if ten people came here and gave you the same story I and a couple others have given you - you STILL wouldn't believe it. Not that I care. You can live your life however you want. Just don't stop those that DO want to hear and follow from doing so.

Let's face it, Sandi. This site is for pushing drugs. Natural medicine cannot be patented and won't make a lot of people rich. Drugs will. And those who don't use them are really not that welcome here. When I attempted to post warnings on two drugs I was taken to task for doing so. So what if the warnings end up only effecting 10% of the people? Are those 10% not important enough to need to know it? What if it's 1%? For EVERY post I've done that has stated our experience and suggested folks might want to check into something - you have to come back and say it's worked for way more people. What you don't get is that maybe those who still have ITP are being effected exactly as I'm saying in those posts but they aren't checking because you're attempting to nullify every word that gets said that is contrary to what you believe.

Literally, the ONLY reason I have stayed on this board is because once in awhile there is a parent or person who wants to know another way to do this ITP thing. I can give that info to them. Obviously few others will give it to them. I WISH I had had that when Bubba got sick. It took the grace of God and some serious internet searching to find homeopathy and who could help us. When I first got on this board everyone was quite happy to push a ton of drugs. The "natural" section is so riddled with strife from those who disagree with it that it was hard to gleen any info from it. Perhaps if those who disagree with natural medicine as a mode of healing stay off of the natural board more people might actually post their experiences there. But let's be honest, it's only there to appease people, not to be a help. If one of you had to defend your use of drugs the way we have to defend our use of natural medicine, you wouldn't put up with it for too long. Trust me.

eklein wrote:

What does it mean to say '80% of the immune system is in the gut'? How is the immune system measured to come up with a statistic like that? What percentage of the immune system is the white blood cells? What percentage of the immune system is our tonsils? Is it by weight? By volume? I saw that statistic repeated over and over on non-scientific internet sites. That doesn't make it true.

I happen to agree that gut-related issues can make immune problems worse (or fixing them might make them better) - but I object to sloppy statements like that. Also we don't use just 10% of our brain but a lot of people have certainly repeated the statement that we do. Repeating it doesn't make it true.
Erica

Erica,

Just now getting time to respond to this.

I don't know what you call "scientific" sites. I suppose just as you can find as many reasons for me not to practice natural medicine as I can find for you not to use medicine, we can find sites to counter each other. I'm not playing that game. I'm happy to give you links and you can make your own decisions. There's a few articles below that talk about the gut immune system you can fish through. Some better then others. I won't spend all night finding a bunch of them for you. In natural circles you will find leaky gut frequently mentioned in relation to the gut immune system as well. So some of these articles reference both the enteric (sp?) immune system and leaky gut because they are related health wise (from a natural standpoint).


www.enzymestuff.com/conditionleakygut.htm

www.sciencemag.org/content/307/5717/1920.short

articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/07/05/probiotics-found-to-help-your-gut-s-immune-system.aspx

drhyman.com/is-your-digestive-system-making-you-sick-582/


Some of these articles only mention gut immunity in passing, some more specifically.

patti

patti wrote:

Sandi wrote:

Patti - the only flaw in that is time. Some people do not have the luxury of allowing a clot to dissolve naturally. Some people do not have the luxury of getting counts up naturally. Treating cancer naturally, again, time can be an issue. Some people don't have 4 to 6 months to see if a natural treatment will work.

I've met many doctors that I didn't like over the years. I either did not like their personality or I did not agree with their methods of treatment. When that happens, I move on and find one that I do like. I have been successful and therefore, wouldn't presume to say that all or even most doctors are bad. There are some who are compassionate and caring and know their stuff. I have a hemo who has been the first to admit that ITP is not his specialty; he treats over 100 illnesses and said he cannot know everything about all of them. I respect that. I became proactive and did my own research and we work together. I have seen an actual ITP specialist and did not get any better answers there, so I do not believe I lost anything with my current hemo of 13 years.

I agree with Erica about digestive issues....I do believe that some disorders can be controlled by diet. I used the word controlled, not cured because chances are, if you stop the diet, the disorder will come back. However, I also believe that there are many people for whom this will not work.

You keep saying that there are many people on these boards who have been cured by homeopathy. Where are they? I'd love to hear from them so please round them up. I'm sure everyone struggling with ITP right now would love to hear their stories.

Sandi,

You seem to have missed the entire point of my post. You asked if I would ever see a doctor. I gave you my answer. Apparently in that you somehow think that I have/had the luxury of time and that's the only reason I chose the route I did. At least that's how you come across. I think I was pretty clear that trauma/emergencies, are just that. I pulled out the blood clot example because I was trying to make a point and you completely missed that point as well. If you look at the diseases of today that people pop up with, very few of them are an "emergency." My BIL gets patients in his office daily with heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes (type 2), etc. He tells every single one of them to fix their diet by eating nothing processed (not from a box or can) and what's wrong with them will get better within 6 months and probably sooner. In 20% of the cases he said patients will do it. The other 80% tell him they want medicine to fix it. THAT'S the point I was trying to make. Some people have choices to fix things simply by being healthier and they don't want to because it's too hard and takes too long. I won't quibble about emergencies. They exist, they happen. But once the emergency is over, time is generally on people's side. I said, generally. That means "not always." No need to argue semantics here.

You imply we made our decision for natural medicine based on just a couple of doctors. Well, we partially did. Because after 7 not having a clue we figured what harm could one naturepath do? I mean really? How surprised we were. It's not like we didn't switch and switch and switch. So it's not like we gave up after one doc. I'm not the only one on planet earth that has had this issue. Sometimes I think that's how a lot of us got started with natural medicine. We refuse to believe someone with a god complex when they say, "it can't be fixed." But the second part of that is realizing I'm responsible for my own health. That means doing only those things which actually promote health. As I said earlier, you don't heal the body by making it sick or trying to kill it first. There is absolutely nothing logical about that. So the second part of our decision was simply logical.

With ITP, the only ones who wouldn't have the luxury of time would be a bleeder with low counts, IMO. What made my kid any different at zero then the next guy except he wasn't a bleeder? Did he have the time for that? Did I? No one does. I have a friend whose husband quit his job and took care of her full time and their 3 little boys so they could treat her aplastic anemia naturally. The doctors said she'd die within months if they didn't do something *now.* It took two years. It was the *hard* thing to do. They could have done all of the drugs they wanted to throw at her. All I'm saying is, there is a way to heal the body and if a load of people here want to do drugs, then go for it. But whenever someone mentions anything natural the wolves come out. And you know they do! I also think doctors tend to be alarmists. I've seen this over and over the last 15yrs. They use fear to scare you into doing what THEY think you should do. And that is exactly what they did with Bubba when we took him in. Which is the only reason we did IVIG in the first place. They convinced us he would die if we didn't do something. When I see people with counts at 5K that aren't bleeders, it doesn't phase me a bit now. If my boy can sit at zero for months (again, he's not a bleeder), then so can others. But my boy would still be at zero today had we not gone homeopathic. Three hematologists pretty much gave up on doing anything but chemo with him. And they don't even know that that would have worked. Again, you don't heal the body by making it sick first. That's just crazy.

I do not think ITP is a disease of diet. I don't think that just changing one's diet will fix it (if that were the case Bubba wouldn't have gotten it in the first place because that kid has a very pure diet - mostly out of necessity). I would venture that there might be one or two other people on this board who eat as clean as my family does (we do not eat processed food at all). We eat all organic, from farms, etc. Do I think diet helped Bubba as his body healed? Yes. Do I think we would have seen the homeopathy work as fast if we ate the standard american diet? No way. But diet did not fix him. Homeopathy did. Somehow I think you equate homeopathy and naturepathy as one in the same. And they are two very different creatures. I use both depending on the situation I'm dealing with.

I can think of at least 3 people off the top of my head that don't post here anymore after using homeopathy. And I haven't been on this board long. They don't post because the nastiness that several of you put out is so very bad that who wants it? It would be nice if they would come back and tell you all, but it's guaranteed that either someone will get nasty with them or they will get blown off as not having been as bad off or something. And be honest with yourself - if ten people came here and gave you the same story I and a couple others have given you - you STILL wouldn't believe it. Not that I care. You can live your life however you want. Just don't stop those that DO want to hear and follow from doing so.

Let's face it, Sandi. This site is for pushing drugs. Natural medicine cannot be patented and won't make a lot of people rich. Drugs will. And those who don't use them are really not that welcome here. When I attempted to post warnings on two drugs I was taken to task for doing so. So what if the warnings end up only effecting 10% of the people? Are those 10% not important enough to need to know it? What if it's 1%? For EVERY post I've done that has stated our experience and suggested folks might want to check into something - you have to come back and say it's worked for way more people. What you don't get is that maybe those who still have ITP are being effected exactly as I'm saying in those posts but they aren't checking because you're attempting to nullify every word that gets said that is contrary to what you believe.

Literally, the ONLY reason I have stayed on this board is because once in awhile there is a parent or person who wants to know another way to do this ITP thing. I can give that info to them. Obviously few others will give it to them. I WISH I had had that when Bubba got sick. It took the grace of God and some serious internet searching to find homeopathy and who could help us. When I first got on this board everyone was quite happy to push a ton of drugs. The "natural" section is so riddled with strife from those who disagree with it that it was hard to gleen any info from it. Perhaps if those who disagree with natural medicine as a mode of healing stay off of the natural board more people might actually post their experiences there. But let's be honest, it's only there to appease people, not to be a help. If one of you had to defend your use of drugs the way we have to defend our use of natural medicine, you wouldn't put up with it for too long. Trust me.

'

Patti: you really do a disservice to those who might consider homeopathy with this kind of posting -- which unfortunately follows a pattern with you. You make a statement, someone asks you about it, and the knives come out and you attack that person. Sandi asked a pretty simple question -- you stated that "there are many people that have been on these boards" who can attest that ITP is cured by homeopathy. Sandi simply asked: "who?" It's a very valid question. In response, you allude to only 3 people, and then go on a tirade about god complexes and this board just pushing drugs etc. etc.

Last time all of this boiled up, you made some similar sweeping statements, including this one:

"What angers me is when the mere mention of anything outside of someone's comfort zone causes people to suggest that only the doctors know what they're doing. That's what angers me." And then this one: "Because doctors and hospitals are owned by the drug companies. No matter how you cut it." And then this one: "ALL disease is caused by some malfunction in the immune system."

You accuse Sandi of summarily dismissing homeopathy, but aren't you doing exactly the same thing, by summarily dismissing doctors with their "god" complexes? I asked you a lot of questions during that last round, and you never responded.

One of your very first posts on the board included this statement: "do you know anyone who has gotten through this" and "everything I've read online says it can take 4-6 months to heal from this." I think you would have to admit these statements show a pretty basic lack of understanding of what ITP is -- and that's fine. You were new. You were trying to learn. That's great. But, then three weeks later -- THREE WEEKS -- you started pushing homeopathy, including making this statement: "But too many people have had success with diet, natural means, etc."

You came a very long ways in only three weeks, from thinking it takes "4-6 months to heal" from ITP, to being the expert on whether someone should go see a doctor (I guess now you have limited this to non-emergent situations) to stating that "diet, natural means" are a CURE for ITP.

Maybe you can see why you get asked questions, maybe you can't. But, either way, attacking Sandi and refusing to support your sweeping statements about ITP and homeopathy are not effective ways to push your beliefs. Do you even know whether Sandi has ever tried homeopathy? Here's a little secret that I mentioned in an earlier post but you missed it: I have. I have tried it many times. I tried it before you had ever even heard of ITP. It didn't work for me. Too bad, I wish it had. But do you see me running around on here saying it will *never* work for anyone. Nope. If someone wants to try it, great, go for it, I hope it works for you. I even say this about Vitamin C, which, over the past 40 years, has come up time and time again as a "cure." I've taken enough Vitamin C to fund a Vitamin C pill factory. But, when you said you wanted to try Vitamin C for your son, I said great, I hope it works for you. You think it did. Great. I hope your son never has a low count again. Trust me, I really do.

But, setting yourself up as THE expert who can disprove all of medical science, based (at first) on your three weeks of reading websites about ITP? Do you think this course of action will cause people to want to try homeopathy, or to not try it?

patti wrote:

Let's face it, Sandi. This site is for pushing drugs. Natural medicine cannot be patented and won't make a lot of people rich. Drugs will.

I don't think that is a fair statement that this site is for pushing drugs. This site is here to support those who come here who are scared and don't know where to turn - this site is to share experiences not to push anything, "natural" or man-made.

Once someone gets into that Big Pharma cr*p and drugs make people rich stuff they turn me off and probably turn off a lot of others. I haven't been made rich by telling my story.

And why isn't there a push to get "natural" medicine patented so it can be said it makes a lot of people rich. Are you doing anything to try to get it regulated? Wasn't it Mannatech who was pushing to get "natural" stuff regulated?

I am putting " " around "natural" because just because something is deemed "natural" does not mean it can't cause side effects or problems for the person taking it. As a wise pediatrician once told me "nothing is non-toxic to everyone".

My thought is if people would stop the Big Pharma bit and drugs make people rich bit maybe they would be taken more seriously.

Moved from KO's thread.

Gort wrote:

You make a statement, someone asks you about it, and the knives come out and you attack that person. Sandi asked a pretty simple question -- you stated that "there are many people that have been on these boards" who can attest that ITP is cured by homeopathy. Sandi simply asked: "who?" It's a very valid question. In response, you allude to only 3 people, and then go on a tirade about god complexes and this board just pushing drugs etc. etc.

Gort - I'm pretty sure I answered Sandi's question. Of the people that I'm aware of that have used natural means successfully for their ITP, there are 3 I've talked to personally. The others I know of them, but do not know them to talk to them. Of any of those people, none have given me permission to use their names. I'm pretty sure most people would be upset to be drawn into a conversation by name without their permission. The second issue is, those people have opted not to post because of the rudeness. Therefore, using their names also puts them into a conversation (by default) that they didn't want to be involved in. So I think it's fair to not use their names. You wouldn't appreciate someone doing that to you would you? It's a matter of respect.

You accuse Sandi of summarily dismissing homeopathy, but aren't you doing exactly the same thing, by summarily dismissing doctors with their "god" complexes? I asked you a lot of questions during that last round, and you never responded.

I have not summarily dismissing doctors because I used them for years. Summarily dismissing them would mean making that statement but never having seen them. My personal experience with God complexes started in 2001. So, I figure 9yrs is long enough to make a judgment. If it's not, how long exactly should I wait before I make a judgment to their effectiveness?

There are times I do not see some things on this board. If I missed questions, it wasn't intentional.

One of your very first posts on the board included this statement: "do you know anyone who has gotten through this" and "everything I've read online says it can take 4-6 months to heal from this." I think you would have to admit these statements show a pretty basic lack of understanding of what ITP is -- and that's fine. You were new. You were trying to learn. That's great. But, then three weeks later -- THREE WEEKS -- you started pushing homeopathy, including making this statement: "But too many people have had success with diet, natural means, etc."

First, what you don't know about me is I've been studying the immune system and blood diseases since 2002. So while I was definitely new to ITP, I was not new to blood issues and especially not platelets. ITP was something I hadn't had a part of. But I quickly determined it really was not much different then what I had been studying and dealing with already for years. The process of my coming to that conclusion was about a month from when I started researching. My son had ITP for 3 months before we even considered treating him naturally. And at first, we attempted naturepathically but it was not the right mode for ITP.

My point has been all along (but seems to keep being missed) that natural medicine of all sorts is effective in healing disease (not just ITP) and I have seen that over and over the past 5-6yrs. Not just those who treated their ITP the same way we chose to treat our son's. But other auto-immune diseases, cancers, etc. And since I have an autoimmune disease that I'm working on healing right now, I can speak from some experience in that area.

If you found something that healed yourself and you knew of others that had the same disease, would you not tell them? I think people on this board do it all the time with treatments they're using. Promacta worked for me, rituxin for me, etc. etc. etc. And everytime someone new joins the board, lots of people are willing to list out what drugs are available to help them. How is my pointing out that homeopathy can also help them any different? Is it because that's the only thing I'm pointing out? Because it's no different then what everyone else is doing. I really don't need you to answer that. I'm just showing you that while you may think I'm "pushing" homeopathy, I'm doing nothing different then pointing out the same thing everyone else is. And I try to be very selective about who I mention it to at that. Probably have gotten more selective as time has gone on.

You came a very long ways in only three weeks, from thinking it takes "4-6 months to heal" from ITP, to being the expert on whether someone should go see a doctor (I guess now you have limited this to non-emergent situations) to stating that "diet, natural means" are a CURE for ITP.

Again, my past experience lent a lot to me once I got a handle on what ITP was. I've studied the immune system for a long time and had a pretty good comfort level with what we were dealing with once we had time to do some reading up on ITP. Because it's all immune based and I had already studied that. And yes, ITP can be cured naturally. I strongly believe that. If someone else doesn't want to believe that, that is certainly their right and I'm not going to stand in the way of that. It's sad, but they're big people. They can make those choices. Just like we did. And I've never told anyone not to go to their doctor. Sandi asked what *I* would see a doctor for and I answered that question. And we made that decision long ago. You implying that I said anything of that sort to others is just flat wrong.

Maybe you can see why you get asked questions, maybe you can't. But, either way, attacking Sandi and refusing to support your sweeping statements about ITP and homeopathy are not effective ways to push your beliefs.

You know, the internet is a really hard place for people to see someone's facial expressions, response, etc. I've tried pretty well to answer what's been asked of me and if you feel like I haven't, well, sorry. I was not attacking Sandi. Sandi has dogged me since the day we determined that we understood what we were dealing with and how we were going to handle it. Anything I've said she has a quick come back for. What comes across is, "God forbid, she can't let it stand that there may be another way." That's how she comes across.

Apparently, I haven't succeeded in being clear about treatments. When I use the terms natural medicine, I am referring to all forms of it. Chiropractic, naturepathic, homeopathic, chinese medicine, acupuncture, indian medicine (I'm not even going to try and spell that one). Those are all natural forms (and there are others I didn't list). And each one has its own merits and each one is more suited to some diseases then others. In my studies and our experience, homeopathy is more suited to treating ITP. Pain issues are well suited for being treated by acupuncture. I'm only using those as examples. Aplastic anemia is well treated via naturopathy. All I'm trying to point out is there are natural ways to treat disease. That's it. It's that simple. The reason homeopathy comes up on this board (for me anyway) is because it is well suited to treating ITP (and other platelet issues) and shock of all shocks, this is a platelet board!

Here's a little secret that I mentioned in an earlier post but you missed it: I have. I have tried it many times. I tried it before you had ever even heard of ITP. It didn't work for me. Too bad, I wish it had. But do you see me running around on here saying it will *never* work for anyone. Nope.

For the record: a good homeopath is like a good MD. They are hard to find (hearing lots of yucky hemo stories here lately). I used it to and it didn't work. Not because homeopathy doesn't work, but because the person prescribing it to me was not good at it. I would say that to anyone who had tried it for anything unsuccessfully because from what we've seen and experienced, it's the knowledge base of the practitioner to prescribe it right that makes the difference. Even for Bubba, we used someone prior to his current provider and she didn't do it right and it didn't work for him. Given the right remedy, he did fantastic. And that's what I'd tell you if I knew you. Find another doctor.... just as a person would if they didn't trust/like their hemo.

But, when you said you wanted to try Vitamin C for your son, I said great, I hope it works for you. You think it did. Great.

I no more believe vit. C will heal ITP then I do rituxan or prednisone will. We used vit. C only for cell integrity. That's it. We used it to prevent bleeding, not heal anything.

But, setting yourself up as THE expert who can disprove all of medical science, based (at first) on your three weeks of reading websites about ITP? Do you think this course of action will cause people to want to try homeopathy, or to not try it?

I'm not setting myself up as THE expert on ITP. I can tell you I am well studied and learned on the immune system, how it functions, how it can heal, what it needs, pharmaceuticals and how they affect the body long term (especially as they pertain to immunity), diet, nutrition, and most other forms of natural medicine. Not from this board or anything I've read on a website. It's been years of learning and reading and experiencing in attempts to heal my son's immune system. All prior to ITP. Once I figured out what ITP was, it made total sense to me why he had it. I'd been dealing with his malfunctioning immune system since he was 14 months old. Does that make me an expert? Nope. But I sure as heck know a whole lot more then y'all think I do.

The bottom line is, as I've said before, my frustration is at constantly having others come back about why people shouldn't be using natural medicine (of any form) in an attempt to heal ITP because someone thinks it can't be healed, and certainly not with something natural. Everytime someone makes a post about rituxan I do not get on there and start telling the asking party all about why rituxan is bad and will harm them, etc. etc. etc. But it happens with two or three people everytime a few of use post about something natural - be it homeopathy or popping vitamins. Pick your poison. It doesn't matter.

So, Gort, I can appreciate you think I know nothing. But the truth of the matter is, I know quite a bit about what I'm dealing with in terms of health and the immune system. Enough that I'm confident in treating my son and family naturally. And I've cheered for the others that it's worked for as well. Some day, maybe they'll post. We can certainly encourage that.

patti

Here's my favorite link on the manufactured dicotomy between alternative treatments and evidence based medicine. Haven't posted it for a loooooong time, so I think it's worth another look:

www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6

Someone will argue that this isn't a perfect link for this particular thread, but I'm sitting alone in a hotel room in Tampa tonight and wanted to post it, so here it is.

patti wrote:

The bottom line is, as I've said before, my frustration is at constantly having others come back about why people shouldn't be using natural medicine (of any form) in an attempt to heal ITP because someone thinks it can't be healed, and certainly not with something natural.

Can you link to some posts wherein people are "constantly" stating "people shouldn't be using natural medicine (of any form)"?

So, Gort, I can appreciate you think I know nothing.

Can you link to a post by me where I stated this?

Hello, I really dont' want to get involved in the bulk of this conversation, I just had one question. Patty, you said

heal ITP because someone thinks it can't be healed

Does the person you are currently working with, not sure if it's homeopath or naturepath, sorry, believe ITP can be "healed"?

server wrote:

Hello, I really dont' want to get involved in the bulk of this conversation, I just had one question. Patty, you said

heal ITP because someone thinks it can't be healed

Does the person you are currently working with, not sure if it's homeopath or naturepath, sorry, believe ITP can be "healed"?

Yes. As do I.

For what it's worth, I have started using homeopathic treatment for this ITP condition and I'm already seeing some results. I will make sure to post details as soon as my platelets stabilize in the higher range (fingers and toes crossed ).

I think the misconception most have about homeopathy is that it is some special diet that is supposed to cure diseases (that is what I thought but I was very wrong). In fact my homeopathic treatment plan so far has had nothing to do with my diet, I have just made adjustments to my diet anyway as I wasn't eating right in the past to begin with. A healthy diet in my mind goes a long way though to keep the body functioning properly.

I will have to agree with Patti that the hardest part about Homeopathy is being patient while the body heals. I am not against western medicine either. Infact I went that route initially but it has been a road to no where thus far, so Homeopathy to me was just another treatment but not as harsh as what I have put my body through. Also while being treated now, I am being closely monitored by my hematologist and homeopath.

I am originally from a third world country and have seen first hand the use of plants to cure a lot of ailments including stomach aches and high fevers. So that is definitely why I was very open to homeopathy because I know there are alternatives to a lot (not everything) of what western medicine offers. For example, I use to have acid reflux and immediately the doctor put me on a pill a day for an undertermined period of time. I did not want that. I did my own research and found out apple cider vinegar can relief heart burn. I tried it and it worked so I stopped taking the pill the doctor had prescribed.

I can see why some people are skeptics about alternative treatments but so far it has been good to me, so I'm hanging in there and trying to save my spleen.

People talk about ITP in remission, and management of ITP through diet etc. Why not call it 'healed' if that's what motivates the healing process.
People talk about being healed of cancer. I have heard it said a few times that we are lucky to have ITP and not something worse - I have assumed cancer is one of those diseases considered worse than ITP.
Has there been any recent research into this ??

Hi MDgal,

I'm new to ITP. I thought homeopathy is largely about diet. Since its not, can you share your homeopathic plan which has helped you so that people like me who are new to ITP can benefit from it. Thanks.

Lindy wrote:

Hi MDgal,

I'm new to ITP. I thought homeopathy is largely about diet. Since its not, can you share your homeopathic plan which has helped you so that people like me who are new to ITP can benefit from it. Thanks.

Lindy -
I am glad you are interested in it. I think there are several posts in the natural section with details on how this works. My treatment plan is customized to my symptoms and everything else that is going on with me, not just ITP. So unfortunately I cannot share my plan as it may not work for you or anyone else and I don't want to mislead anyone. Homeopathy as I found out, does not treat one specific disease but treats the entire body including things not related to the disease in question that are going on at the same time in the body.

Since you are interested, I will strongly recommend you get in contact with a good Homeopath, not just one who has taken one or two classes but one who has completed the 3 to 5 years of education it entails. Ask a lot of questions during your consult if you are unsure about anything. Even though a good homeopath will let you do most of the talking so they can pin point your issues. Please look into it, don't be discouraged.

I don't want to get too involved, but I want to know Patti apart from yourself, when has anyone on this forum been rude? You say members are rude, but here your doing a really good job of being extremely rude and to some extent offensive as your constantly attacking people's opinions instead of just saying I don't agree with what your saying. I think the members here are the most nicest and kindest people I have ever had the pleasure of talking to on a forum and I have been on several different kinds of forum (not just medical ones) and I respect all of their opinions and advice given to me when I ask for advice. I might not always agree with their opinions, but i respect them as i do yours as well. Also this site is for supporting each other and helping each other through difficult times and to help celebrate when treatments are going well and helping counts to go higher regardless if the treatment is natural or drug based, not to push drugs. If you think that's what this site is all about and we are all rude, why stay here when your unhappy with the way u believe u are being treated??

Tensions arise, particularly when it is mother's wanting to love and protect their beautiful children.
The challenge is to exercise understanding and forgiveness.
Tis the season to be Gentle. :silly:

Messed up here - Should have Tamar's post and link to an article and discussion on medicinal plants and pharmaceuticals - posted 3 days ago in this thread.

Hi Tamar, Interesting article but I thought it became a bit too heady and argumentative and confused some basic issues.
I think it pulled the bow a bit far when it claimed "a false dichotomoy between natural and synthetic" (4th paragraph from the end of original article). Paracetamol and some chemo drugs etc. are completely synthetic; aspirin, morphine, most (I think) antibiotics, digoxin, some chemo drugs etc. are synthesised from plant based ingredients and then there's plants (toxic and non-toxic).
Although I have a great admiration for paracetamol and have given it effectively to many elderly patients, I personally have more faith in plants and plant based drugs to have less insidious side-effects. Something to do with evolution or just a feeling of connectedness.
Best wishes, Sally

Sally:

The thing about ITP is that you can never say for certain that it is 'healed'. It's called remission because it can always come back. People truly know for sure on the day they die.

I've been in remission for 6 years. Am I certain it will never recur? Absolutely not. I can understand wounds being healed, but I can't understand illnesses being healed.

I'm not sure what you mean about research and cancer being worse than ITP. I may be able to point you in the right direction if I understood the question.

sally wrote:

Messed up here - Should have Tamar's post and link to an article and discussion on medicinal plants and pharmaceuticals - posted 3 days ago in this thread.

Hi Tamar, Interesting article but I thought it became a bit too heady and argumentative and confused some basic issues.
I think it pulled the bow a bit far when it claimed "a false dichotomoy between natural and synthetic" (4th paragraph from the end of original article). Paracetamol and some chemo drugs etc. are completely synthetic; aspirin, morphine, most (I think) antibiotics, digoxin, some chemo drugs etc. are synthesised from plant based ingredients and then there's plants (toxic and non-toxic).
Although I have a great admiration for paracetamol and have given it effectively to many elderly patients, I personally have more faith in plants and plant based drugs to have less insidious side-effects. Something to do with evolution or just a feeling of connectedness.
Best wishes, Sally

Hi Sally,

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. What I interpret the article to be saying is that everyone wants safe and effective treatments. The origin of a treatment does not determine whether it's safe or effective.

Best wishes, Tamar

Hi there Tamar,
I just took exception to the comment that 'we need to purge ourselves of the false dichotomy natural and synthetics.'
I think it is a very real dichotomy.
The long term side-effects of many synthetic drugs are still being identified. It's an ongoing research project. So to of course with herbs and supplements but to a lesser extent due to the knowledge we have acquired through history.
I do not want to destroy others faith in the medical system. Unfortunately my experience (and it is long) has me trying very hard to avoid being treated for ITP, if it can be helped. I believe I have a greater chance of positive health outcomes ie. quality of life issues, if I can manage Itp with diet, supplements, meditation etc.
I understand that not everyone diagnosed with ITP has the luxury of time that I have (ie. counts above the level that doctors want to treat) but I am going to use the knowledge I have been given (thanks to medical science) and do my darndest to try to improve my health and hopefully increase those pesky platelets .
Sally

Okay, I guess we have to fundamentally agree to disagree. I hesitate to use the tobacco card, but it's a very real example of a natural product that was used for medicinal purposes for many years, and now (after scientific research) has been proven to be extremely harmful. Natural products that aren't used in the sheer volume tobacco has been used might well be just as harmful, but the trends are more difficult to spot.

I'm not saying the same isn't true about pharmaceutical products. Some are pulled off the market after additional research uncovers something not initially known. I happen to take comfort in the initial research that allowed the treatment to be released.

I think setting up a dichotomy and arguing it isn't useful. For any given person, they can make a choice about what criteria they use when selecting treatments for themselves. As you pointed out above, when those decisions start to involve children instead of self, the stakes are higher and it's not uncommon to see concern expressed when a treatment choice seems risky.

Sally, that was exactly my take on that article. There is no "perceived" dichotomy, there is one.

For the record, tabacco is used homeopathically today. My sister to used it to quit smoking and it worked perfectly.

The notion that when children are involved something becomes "riskier" is really bad reasoning. Just because one person thinks natural medicine might be "risky" doesn't mean it is. It is parents, and parents alone who God gave to make choices for their children. Other people may not like those choices, but the reality is, they are a PARENTS responsibility. The first time my son's hemo suggested she would make decisions regarding his care, is when we got a lawyer ready for the call. NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, will tell us what is right or wrong for our son. If we had listened to our hemo I have no doubt my son would be dead right now. No doubt at all. The idea that because there are a few stupid idiots in this world that will abuse their kids, therefore everyone needs to be told what to do is ludicrous. And I'm going to stop right there before I explode on this issue.

All things used in excess can be bad for us. "Let your moderation be known to all men." You don't punish the masses for the excesses of the idiots.

Please don't explode. That was not my intent.

And, just to be clear....

tamar wrote:

I think setting up a dichotomy and arguing it isn't useful.

In addition, I didn't say when children are involved it becomes riskier. I said people are more likely to express their concern when children are involved.

Take care and happy holidays!

I agree Tamar. I admit to having a real fascination in the topic.
I have administered 'tons' of paracetamol and temazepam over the years with great effect and only occasional side-effects. They are both quite remarkable drugs but ones I personally use very cautiously
And then there's alcohol- I still chose to use it to relax even though i was aware it was not healthy for me - didn't realise just how unhealthy.
But I just really enjoy learning about herbs, growing and consuming them, and observing for their effects. Each to their own.
Season's Greetings.

I think there is probably good points to herbs, natural treatment, and standard medicine. I've known quite a few woman whose lives has been spared by either surgery, chemotherapy, or other medical treatments. I know some women that I grew up with who are Christian Science and do not believe in medicine at all. And, when they do go to a doctor, they "hide" their treatment because it is against their religion. The one woman who I went to school with looks like she needs "some type" of medical greatment as she is out of breath and can hardly walk at the age of 61. I know if I was in the hospital with pnemonia, I would want the doctor to try and save my life.

These are just my thoughts--you just need to use common sense at times.

tamar wrote:

Please don't explode. That was not my intent.

Tamar,

I do apologize for being so strong with that. Please understand that we were threatened, harassed, etc. all summer by hemos. regarding my son. To the extent of having to seek a lawyer in case we needed him. I tend to be hypersensitive about parental rights because of it. I'm sure most would understand that. Our children bring out the mama bear in us. We had to fight every inch after they did IVIG and tried prednisone on our son. We shouldn't have needed to and I get real testy when I see the words "risky," "children," and "natural treatment" in the same sentence.

patti

patti wrote:

I tend to be hypersensitive about parental rights

Just as I tend to be hypersensitive [ticked off, see red, mad as a hornet] when someone says "I'd rather have cancer than ITP because cancer can be cured".